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V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 127
(8/4/03 6:30 pm)
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Re: .
I didn't pay any attention to the comment anyways. I know most people don't know what they're talking about anyways so I passed it by as mindless jargon. Thanks for making other people aware of this though. What did you mean by pudgy anyways when you were describing the cams for the blue top in a red top head???

neil85AE86
Registered User
Posts: 1261
(8/4/03 6:33 pm)
Reply
uh hmm!
"I'm not sure where u got this information,but that is the biggest lot of misleading bullshit I have ever read concerning the GE.
Piston squirters are possibly THE single most IMPERATIVE component to the GE's abilities and longevity,there the main reason for the later ZE's and GE's C/R ratios,without extracting the heat from the pistons,detonation and preignition would run rampant!"

I got this info. in person from Richard White, not over the internet, he happens to live around the corner from my parents. Richard is the owner of TED Components, author of many of the articles on club4ag, and a member of the Formula Atlantic engine builder program. Please discuss rationally or don't say anything at all, and also please show us your credentials.

Neil

Edited by: neil85AE86 at: 8/4/03 6:40 pm
aeaw
Registered User
Posts: 545
(8/4/03 6:36 pm)
Reply
re: whole post
I know absolutely nothing on this specific subject of redtop blacktop greentop moptop, but it sure sounds like a whole lotta of money to do this...

GTSCanuck
Registered User
Posts: 234
(8/4/03 7:14 pm)
Reply
RE: Pentavalver
Ok, there Pentavalver, If he gave some misleading information, who cares, Just correct him.. Seriously no need to vent out such stupid anger on simple error. But who know's it could be right, or wrong.

V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 128
(8/4/03 7:40 pm)
Reply
Re: RE: Pentavalver
I know neil85 ae86 knows what he's talking about but this is something I don't really trust. I've discussed this topic with many people I know who race and build engines and they all agree it's a good idea to keep them in.

neil85AE86
Registered User
Posts: 1262
(8/4/03 7:49 pm)
Reply
Re: RE: Pentavalver
BTW, I didn't say to remove them, I just said that it can be done, I personally wouldn't do anything with the bottom end for a street engine. When I first met up with Richard to discuss a stroker motor I was interested in, I told him I wanted to use a GZE block as my starting point, one of the reasons was for the oil squirters, he said that is one of the first things they remove and then went into a big long explanation as to why, most of which was over my head, that was two years ago now and I honestly don't remember the exact reason why. I'm not stopping anyone from asking him. He has a website which I'm sure most of the ppl on this forum are aware of. Pent needs to relax, of course the internet is not a source of exact info., you need to take in all the info., do your own research and make your own decisions, their was no need to get all worked up about it. A thread is for discussion, not to vent a big message based on assumptions made from a small peace of info. I personall try not to post any here-say, and I'm pretty sure I have a rap that backs that up, altho I may have slipped up once or maybe twice.


Neil



Pentavalver
Registered User
Posts: 548
(8/5/03 4:40 pm)
Reply
.
OK,well if i hadnt carried on,the point prolly wouldnt get across.
Another point,the early ZE block was the same as the bluetop,the bottom of the block (beneath the bores)is much thinner and I think it would be very cramped with a stroker crank,I do know that the bottom of the bores has to be chamfered to miss the crank,regardless of this,I have thought about it, and still cannot fathom why or how there could be any benefit to not having them,to remove them,you would have to either weld,or block off with a bolt,the mounting point in the gallery,which would still leave the problem of falling out anyway??

Formula Atlantic engines are another source of unending bullshit.I have read everything from 220-260HP for this engine,14.7:1 C/R ratio's...and god knows what else,people seem to talk up this engine,like its some fairytale/urban myth,however,its just an engine,for 2 years I asked and argued what the magic was...and the truth??...there isnt any...nothing..just some strong components and big cams,individual throttles.
This is really annoying seeing theres a complete pdf of all Atlantic rules on the net :rolleyes
The RPM limit..a supposed guru often quoted 11000RPM for these engines,I found that hard to believe...so I emailed Hasselgren,with a simple question,"Whats the rev limit imposed by rules,the simple answer:
"9500 RPM" easy,straight from the horses mouth.

I've allways thought the concept of stroking the GE was a backward step,(much like dropping C/R to raise boost)Americans are solely responsible for this scurge,BIGGER IS BETTER,...well,its not.I stated that the GE will rev slower,and throw rods.
I was called a wanker,but the last I heard was that a regular poster on clubge built a stroker...and it threw the rods:rolleyes

Cowboy,the cams in the bluetop are smaller,I suspect they will suffer trying to get the job done with the smaller ports and AFM,unfortunately,the AFM is a problem,big cams...portwork...anything to get more air into the engine is offset by this thing.
I think it will take longer to get on cam,and at this,feel laggy untill it gets really reving.
Without dialing cams,and with only swapping similar specs,you basically just move the power band,power may well be less,untill it gets up in revs,and even then,may be less powerfull at the top of its rang in,as its actually breathing less.

Expo86
Registered Poser
Posts: 866
(8/5/03 5:16 pm)
Reply
Re: .
I thought the cams in the bluetop were bigger: 240 degrees with 7.56mm lift versus the redtop's 232 degrees 7.1 lift.

Dave.

1986 Black on Black GT-S hatch
Speed costs money... how fast do you want to go?

V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 130
(8/5/03 10:39 pm)
Reply
Re: .
Pentavalver. As I said before the blue top cams are bigger in every way and the cams in the red top are pretty much made to be run with the supercharger. The red top cams are also good for turbos so I will be keeping them for later on. As for the AFM I really don't give a shit about it because I have a friend that will be making me an AFM using a Celica AFM with Corolla internals. Supposedly it works really well especially in the upper ranges.

rosuko
engine swap god
Posts: 422
(8/5/03 11:07 pm)
Reply
Re: .
please do me a favour, dont keep referring as red-top and blue-top when you mean small-port and large-port.

Steve

1985 hardtop w/jspec 170hp Levin 4AGZE Erebuni 628 too many mods to list go to www.3sgtemr2.com

V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 131
(8/5/03 11:43 pm)
Reply
Re: .
give me a good reason why and I'll consider it. Most people know these engines by these names and the ports only has to do with the heads.:p

Pentavalver
Registered User
Posts: 549
(8/6/03 3:11 am)
Reply
.
Cowboy,who gave you ur information on the cams??
I'm not going into it again,but will ask,
Has any1 here actually seen the cams u refer to DIALLED?
with an honest to goodness DIAL wheel?
All I know is the cams in my 100K/W here in Australia,RED TOP SMALL PORT, has completely different specs,which,interestingly enuff are identical to the 2nd gen,7MGE,which i recently discovered.
A large AFM is good,MAP is better.
What u really need is some sort of fooler,to send the AFM signal to the ECU,from a MAP sensor.Iam wanting to look into this myself,but havent had much luck...there is 1 in development on the mr2 board? does the super AFC do this?

rosuko
engine swap god
Posts: 423
(8/6/03 2:01 pm)
Reply
Re: .
Cowboy NM, not gonna get into it. :-)

steve

1985 hardtop w/jspec 170hp Levin 4AGZE Erebuni 628 too many mods to list go to www.3sgtemr2.com

GTSSportCoupe
Registered User
Posts: 546
(8/6/03 2:35 pm)
Reply
Re: .
This thread is killing me :x . I can't believe how misinformed half the people who post here are regarding 4age/ze revisions and tuning techniques. :eek Not only that, some of you are being disrespectful towards those who are taking time to try and assist you. Gaahhh!! As to believing what people are talking about: you should try to listen to those who have actually had direct experience working with the issues you want to know about, not just those who have learned what they know by reading what other misinformed people have to say.

Pentavalver
Registered User
Posts: 551
(8/6/03 4:31 pm)
Reply
.
Sportscoupe? who are u referring to?
And what misinformation are u referring to?

GTSSportCoupe
Registered User
Posts: 547
(8/6/03 6:05 pm)
Reply
Re: .
Ok, here I go:

“Sportscoupe? who are u referring to?
And what misinformation are u referring to?”

> I did not mean to put anyone down, my comments may have been a bit strong. It is just disappointing how cool topics like these can go so sideways and cause so much confusion. Following is what I have to say about some of the comments I have read in this thread.

“As for the small port big port thing. As far as I know the small port is actually bigger than the big port but the big port is called that because of the extra ports it has.”

> As answered a couple of times already in this thread the small port IS smaller then the big port (hence the names). I’ve seen each dismantled head before myself many times.

“I think only the GZE has the oil squirters... and that might just be the late model GZE”

> The second generation of the 7-rib block (small port engine) has oil squirters for both GE and GZE applications.

“Also, I really liked the sound the blue top made when the T-VIS made when it opened so I'm hoping the red top will make the noise as well. About the ballast resistor, where do I find it and is it hard to remove???”

> You won’t get the TVIS sound without TVIS. Ballast resistor is super easy to find and remove, it is located near the fuel pump.

“Please invite whoever it was that made this claim here,I'd like to discuss it with them,if not,please educate them and tell them to SHUT THE FUCK UP!”

> Strong words…

“I didn't pay any attention to the comment anyways. I know most people don't know what they're talking about anyways so I passed it by as mindless jargon.”

> Your referring to one of the more experience people on this board, who also happens to be an Engineer by occupation. Be careful how you judge those you are speaking about.

”Formula Atlantic engines are another source of unending bullshit.I have read everything from 220-260HP for this engine,14.7:1 C/R ratio's...and god knows what else,people seem to talk up this engine,like its some fairytale/urban myth,however,its just an engine,for 2 years I asked and argued what the magic was...and the truth??...there isnt any...nothing..just some strong components and big cams,individual throttles.
This is really annoying seeing theres a complete pdf of all Atlantic rules on the net
The RPM limit..a supposed guru often quoted 11000RPM for these engines,I found that hard to believe...so I emailed Hasselgren,with a simple question,"Whats the rev limit imposed by rules,the simple answer:
"9500 RPM" easy,straight from the horses mouth.”

> Formula Atlantic engines may be limited to 9.5k rpm, but are more then likely capable of rpms up to 11k when not limited. Look at the components they are built with – how could they not be. A black top without a rev limiter can rev close to 9.5k (although possibly causing damage), so, seeing the differences between a blacktop and a formula atlantic engine, I don’t see why it would be incapable of revving so high.

”I've allways thought the concept of stroking the GE was a backward step,(much like dropping C/R to raise boost)Americans are solely responsible for this scurge,BIGGER IS BETTER,...well,its not.I stated that the GE will rev slower,and throw rods.
I was called a wanker,but the last I heard was that a regular poster on clubge built a stroker...and it threw the rods “

> Stroker motors do have benefits. If someone is looking for a considerable increase in torque while remaining N/A, this is a good option. Many people have successfully built 7ages with out any problems. Not good for racing applications with a 4age however, as a increased stroke will reduce the revability of the engine.

”Cowboy,the cams in the bluetop are smaller,I suspect they will suffer trying to get the job done with the smaller ports and AFM,unfortunately,the AFM is a problem,big cams...portwork...anything to get more air into the engine is offset by this thing.
I think it will take longer to get on cam,and at this,feel laggy untill it gets really reving.
Without dialing cams,and with only swapping similar specs,you basically just move the power band,power may well be less,untill it gets up in revs,and even then,may be less powerfull at the top of its rang in,as its actually breathing less.”

> Cams in the bluetop have more lift, how does this make them smaller?

“give me a good reason why and I'll consider it. Most people know these engines by these names and the ports only has to do with the heads.”

> Because the ‘red top’ came in a large and small port variation – these are often confused.

“Cowboy,who gave you ur information on the cams??
I'm not going into it again,but will ask,
Has any1 here actually seen the cams u refer to DIALLED?
with an honest to goodness DIAL wheel?
All I know is the cams in my 100K/W here in Australia,RED TOP SMALL PORT, has completely different specs,which,interestingly enuff are identical to the 2nd gen,7MGE,which i recently discovered.
A large AFM is good,MAP is better.
What u really need is some sort of fooler,to send the AFM signal to the ECU,from a MAP sensor.Iam wanting to look into this myself,but havent had much luck...there is 1 in development on the mr2 board? does the super AFC do this?”

> Causing more questions then answering? We were talking about stock cams between the large and small port 4age engines. Lets provide a simple answer to simple questions. Why confuse a simple issue?

> I'm outta time, but when I have a chance I'll provide some input on how I personally would do a redtop swap into an AE86.

Cheers,

Nick


neil85AE86
Registered User
Posts: 1268
(8/6/03 8:34 pm)
Reply
Re: .
> The second generation of the 7-rib block (small port engine) has oil squirters for both GE and GZE applications.

thx for clarifying, I've only been in the bottom of 3rib, gen1 7rib, early GZE and late GZE, never seen the inards of a smallport before, even tho I've heard a few say that they have squirters, I haven't spoken to anyone that's seen it first hand.

Neil



rosuko
engine swap god
Posts: 424
(8/6/03 10:17 pm)
Reply
Re: .
Nick: Thank you I didnt have the patience or eloquence to post what you did, I agree with you 100% and as for what you said about the oil squirters you are 100% correct. I have personally seen the bottom of every revision of 4a series engine except a 20v and can verify that only the "smallport" series of 4age/gze engines have oil squirters, No largeports have oil squirters.

These are the breakdown of each engine i have had apart
-bluetop 3rib largeport no oil squirters
-bluetop 7rib largeport (yes they exist) no oil squirters
-red-top largeport no oil squirters
-jspec redtop largeport no oil squirters
-jspec ae92 AFM GZE no oil squirters
-jspec smallport yes oil squirters
-jspec ae101 smallport gze (1995 ae101) yes oil squirters

These are actual engines that i have had apart.

Steve

1985 hardtop w/jspec 170hp Levin 4AGZE Erebuni 628 too many mods to list go to www.3sgtemr2.com

V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 132
(8/6/03 10:49 pm)
Reply
Re: .
To Nick and Steve,

Thank you for providing me along with everyone else that's reading this with some useful knowledge. That's all I'm looking for here and also to find out more about the transformation of my car into something better. Nick, I encourage you to speak freely on how you would set up a red-top. I'm sorry if I've been a little harsh before it wasn't directed at anyone just the masses. I'm in search of knowledge and that's all. I also want to let people know how my swap is going so other people might think of doing this to their cars. I have many other engine ideas that I would like to try down the road but for now this is what I'm doing.

GTSSportCoupe
Registered User
Posts: 548
(8/7/03 4:22 pm)
Reply
Re: .
Thanks for the positive comments guys. I wasn't sure if I was clarifying things or stirring up shit. ;)

Nick

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