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V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 101
(7/30/03 12:53 am)
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Swapping in a Red top
Any knowledge on this would be greatfully appreciated. I am keeping everything from the red top and using the cams from teh Blue top. I'm keeping the red top cams though for a later project. The intake manifold is being modified so I can use it withthis engine placement. I'm thinking of using an Apex'i S-AFC 2 as well.

neil85AE86
Registered User
Posts: 1249
(7/30/03 7:08 am)
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..
from the bluetop you'll need;

oil pan and pickup
crank pulley, accessory brackets etc.
waterpump
EGR provisions (if you want to be smog legal)

..so you'll need to use the bluetop engine management, I don't believe the Apexi will work with the bluetop setup, it will only work with the JDM redtop MAP setup, which does not have provisions for EGR.

You'll have to splice in your injectors since I believe they have a different connector.

Cread has done the swap, so he may have more info.

It's not as easy as some people think. Which is why alot of folks just end up sticking the bluetop head on the redtop block.

Neil

Migsman 
Licensed to Drift...
Registered to Slide

Posts: 7308
(7/30/03 7:46 am)
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ezSupporter

Re: ..
There's a guy here that runs a highcomp red top in his hachi, but he's using all bluetop wiring/ECU/AFM/etc. The thing runs like poo poo and seems to go through good and bad "moods". If you're going redtop, I'd suggest taking the time to use everything that would go along with that particular engine. Might be a pain in the ass, but I'm sure it'll save you a lot of headaches in the long run

Migs

________________________________________________
1985 Two-Tone Drifter Coupe
1986 Red Cruiser Hatchback

E-MAIL MIGS

V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 102
(7/30/03 11:16 am)
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Re: ..
Thanks for the help guys. Does anyone else have any knowledge about this swap.

DJ Ambiguous
Registered Whiner
Posts: 3697
(7/30/03 12:56 pm)
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Re: ..
ask clinton, (cread_gt)

DJ Ambiguous
1985 AE86 - GTS Hatch (It's not easy being green!)

V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 108
(7/31/03 9:42 am)
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Re: ..
I'm going to do some preventative maintenance while I have the engine out. I'm replacing the rear main seal, crank seal, cam seals, timing belt, water pump, thermostat, accessory drive belts and a Blitz 1.3 Bar rad cap.

slic8 6
Registered User
Posts: 16
(7/31/03 2:37 pm)
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Re: ..
here are a couple things you'll want to change:
waterpump
flywheel
distributor
engine mounts
alt. and bracket
plate behind the flywheel (covers the bottom of the tranny)
rear water outlet

I'm running all bluetop wiring, ecu, injectors. The car runs pretty good, but has a high idle. I would suggest just getting an adaptor so you can use the bluetop intake manifold. It won' flow as good as the small port, but you'll still be able to use the EGR and you won't have to mess with mounting the throttle linkage bracket. If you plan on using p/s you'll have to change the crank pulley.

My buddy who is running a totally stock redtop on bluetop wiring and ecu, dynoed his car and got 110hp at the wheels and 101lb-ft.

jp86
I'm crazy...and so am I
Posts: 4641
(7/31/03 2:45 pm)
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Re: ..
in one of my ae86 magazine I bought off ian, they were doing dyno runs of a stock blue top car and then another dyno run after each mod, they had a blue top head and red top bottm end, with about 154hp then they swapped on a red top head with out changing anything else ( both head were stock except for cams and being milled for higher comp, both head were milled the same and used same cams) and they lost 4-5hp useing the red top intake manifold and head over the blue top manifold and head......

make your own oppinions about this, but I'd stay with the blue head red bottom.

jp

I wanna be sedated :)

V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 109
(7/31/03 5:48 pm)
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Re: ..
there must have been something wrong becuase the red top head flows much better than the blue top. Also the ports are bigger and it has bigger injectors. I'm going to let the cat out of the bag now so every one will know what I'm planning on doing. In the next year or so I'll be starting plans for turboing this car so if I can keep as much of the red top as possible that would be great. The injectors that are in the red top will support mild amounts of boost which is all I'm looking for it also flows better and the cams are better for turbo use as well. One thing I will be doing right now is taking the cams that the blue top has and putting them into the red top head. Hmmmm. Maybe that's why in your mag the blue top produced more power. The cams in the blue top have a little more lift than the ones in the red top.

Cueman
Registered User
Posts: 3236
(7/31/03 6:32 pm)
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Re: ..
110 at the wheels!

That's seriously nice.

Q
DCOE Civic

jp86
I'm crazy...and so am I
Posts: 4644
(7/31/03 6:35 pm)
Reply
Re: ..
they were hks cams... but what I'm talking about is IF your useing the blue top oem ecu and harness.

jp

I wanna be sedated :)

V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 114
(8/1/03 10:47 am)
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Re: ..
Which I am. BUT I'm using an Apex'i Super AFC 2 with the system as well. So I can control the pulse widths and tune the car as well.

slic8 6
Registered User
Posts: 17
(8/1/03 4:35 pm)
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Re: ..
Vdub-actually the ports on the redtop are smaller not bigger. Also why are you using the high compression motor to go turbo?

As far as i know the Apex'i AFC doesn't work with the AFM corollas. So you may want to do some research on that before you go out and buy a bunch of turbo stuff.

creadGT
Registered User
Posts: 268
(8/1/03 9:29 pm)
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Re: ..
done it.
like mentioned earlier it will run with the bluetop ecu & redtop injectors(splice in) but seems to have "good days and bad days". I used redtop injectors because of the higher compression but i might switch back to bluetop injectors just to see because it seems to be running too rich now(could be ecu i guess). I would suggest redtop ecu and injectors but i don't know how hard it is too wire in the bluetop harness. maybe a safc would fix this?
anyways i have a secret engine swap coming up this winter so im not too worried about this now..just hope it lasts the winter. :b
clinton :hat

V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 117
(8/2/03 12:14 am)
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Re: ..
The reason I'm using the red top for a turbo later is because it's basically the same as the 4agze but with higher compression pistons. So when I do decide on turboing the car later, the only thing I have to do is change pistons. The bottom end is already stout enough to take the pis I'll be trowing at it and it has piston oil squirters to keep thins totally in check. As for the small port big port thing. As far as I know the small port is actually bigger than the big port but the big port is called that because of the extra ports it has. Just what I've been told though. I've heard about the problems with running the blue ECU with red top parts and this is the reason for the S-AFC 2. I can also tune the car properly with the new S-AFC 2 which is good considering my friends dyno isn't set-up yet. I got a wicked price on the S-AFC as well 493.50 from MF Tech right here in Vancouver.

slic8 6
Registered User
Posts: 19
(8/2/03 3:38 pm)
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Re: ..
The bigport is actually quite a bit bigger (wider) than the smallport I have 2 bigport and one extra smallport manifold in my garage.

Why not just get a 4agze and sell off all the s/c parts, that way you don't have to change anything later on. From what i remember the later 4agzes had ceramic coated pistons.

And as far as i know, no one has made the SAFC work with our AFM wiring and ecu. So before you get your mind set on tuning it with one, you better make sure it's compatable. I've seen a couple people on clubag buy one, then realize they can't make it work.

V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 119
(8/2/03 6:07 pm)
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Re: ..
I've been told by three shops now that it will work and to just follow the directions. There's directions for a MAP sensor and an AFM sensor. I'm hoping it works, if it doesn't then oh well. The other reason for sticking with the red top head is because it's sumpler then the blue top. No T-VIS to worry about so less problems. The reason for not going with the 4agze is because of price. The price for one of those is a lot and they're really hard to find in good condition. When I do get the new pistons I will be doing some work to the bottm end to make it stronger anyways like shot peening the con's and crank and micro polishing and knife edging the crank. I'll be ceramic coating the tops and putting another coating on the bottom to help get the oil off of them quicker.

neil85AE86
Registered User
Posts: 1260
(8/2/03 6:18 pm)
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oil squirters?
I think only the GZE has the oil squirters... and that might just be the late model GZE. I could be wrong, but I think they are only used in the boosted application to keep the pistons cool, due to the extra heat from combustion as a result of the forced induction. They are not necessary, and often removed from GZE blocks that are used for hi-perf normally aspirated applications, they can actually be a failure point, cause they've been known to come loose under extreme conditions (high rpm).

Yes the ports are alot bigger on a largeport(blue top) I have both in the garage. The smallport are a better design, higher port velocity, theirfore have a better torque band (no TVIS required), not as peaky as the bluetop. I'll bet that the bluetop that made more HP, probably made less torque, and also didn't display as broad of a powerband as the smallport engine.

The smallport engine has a high impedance injector, it is not necessary to run the OE ae86 ballast resistor with these injectors, I've heard it does not make much of a difference but it actually does affect the open/close time of the injector if you run a high impedance injector with a ballast resistor. This may contribute to a poor running engine. I think if you run the largeport injectors they can flow enough for 140HP or so and the bluetop ECU does do oxygen correction of fuel mixtures, and also does some auto learning, it should run OK.

Neil




V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 122
(8/3/03 12:24 am)
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Re: oil squirters?
Wow, thanks man that was a wealth of knowledge. I'm actually hoping to get a little more torque from this head and manifold. That was something I didn't really like about the blue top. Also, I really liked the sound the blue top made when the T-VIS made when it opened so I'm hoping the red top will make the noise as well. About the ballast resistor, where do I find it and is it hard to remove??? As for the oil squirters I'll be able to verify whether or not the car has them on Tues when the guys open it up. As far as I know they come in it but I could be mistaken.

Pentavalver
Registered User
Posts: 547
(8/4/03 5:50 pm)
Reply
.
What I can gather is ur running a REDTOP with an AFM setup? I dont see any probs except that I second Migs on keeping the cams with it,without the redtop cams,its going to have pudgy performance,especially with the AFM restriction.
Turboing wont be a prob,I'd say tho,with the octane of ur fuel,u wont be able to use more than 6-8 PSI,even at this,u'll have a dynamic C/R of around 13.5:1,well beyond the limits of 91-94 octane.

Now,I have to say something,without offence,Neil,I thought u were doing well with ur input,until this:
Quote:
I think only the GZE has the oil squirters... and that might just be the late model GZE. I could be wrong, but I think they are only used in the boosted application to keep the pistons cool, due to the extra heat from combustion as a result of the forced induction. They are not necessary, and often removed from GZE blocks that are used for hi-perf normally aspirated applications, they can actually be a failure point, cause they've been known to come loose under extreme conditions (high rpm).


I'm not sure where u got this information,but that is the biggest lot of misleading bullshit I have ever read concerning the GE.
Piston squirters are possibly THE single most IMPERATIVE component to the GE's abilities and longevity,there the main reason for the later ZE's and GE's C/R ratios,without extracting the heat from the pistons,detonation and preignition would run rampant!

In 15+ years of playing with this engine,I have NEVER, EVER heard of a single problem with these components.Have you ever seen how they fit? They are a major part of the oil gallery in the bottom end.The ONLY way they could come loose,is if some nobjocky failed to torque them correctly! or worse still,failed to install them in the 1st place.(blaming the item for the failure,a poor tradesman blames his tools).I dont know of any current engine which does not utilise them.

To offer advise on REMOVING them is DISASTEROUS! to state there not needed is LUDICROUS!

Please invite whoever it was that made this claim here,I'd like to discuss it with them,if not,please educate them and tell them to SHUT THE FUCK UP!


Hasnt the poor hallowed GE suffered enuff at the peril of the internet??
It never asked for this sort of misrepresentation and bastardisation.
Just because its on the net does not make it WORD,I've given up trying to keep it real with this engine,but I simply had to say something here.

Think it mite be time to buy a Honda.:rolleyes

V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 126
(8/4/03 6:30 pm)
Reply
Re: .
I didn't pay any attention to the comment anyways. I know most people don't know what they're talking about anyways so I passed it by as mindless jargon. Thanks for making other people aware of this though. What did youmean by pudgy anyways when you were describing the cams for the blue top in a red top head???

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