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rix86
Registered User
Posts: 17
(6/9/01 1:00:05 pm)
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supercharger
I'm going to be getting my supercharger next week and i'm wondering if any one had any thoughts on using just the main s/c unit and making all new plumbing with aluminum piping and a stand alone engine management system. the factory s/c plumbing looks terribly restrictive, and i think it would be easier to maintain and repair with plumbing designed for the rear drive car, with a front mount intercooler etc. and the na manifold, or a custom log-style manifold. has anyone done anything like this yet and what do you think about the feasibility of this idea? also does any one have any idea about how to get rid of the flip up head lights without swapping the whole front of the car to a levin, or trueno which ever it is. and does anyone know where to get an adjustable proportioning valve to replace the one on the strut tower? any comments and/or ideas are welcome and anticipated. thanks in advance.

Aedave 
Registered User
Posts: 61
(6/10/01 4:38:23 pm)
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Re: no flip up headlights
One of the guys who attended the Vancouver meet did a mod, Maybe Migsman or Menece might have some pics or info about that car:eek . I was thinking of doing a modified headlight setup on my Ae92 using some modular projector lights (Xenon?) made by Hella. I need to look into the legalities and costs though.

rix86
Registered User
Posts: 22
(6/11/01 5:06:17 pm)
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anyone
Thanks for the reply on the lights, i've been thinking about that route, too. Anyone else got any ideas on the supercharger thing...Moto P,.. Bill Sherwood... Smuggla...Taka...turbo4ag...anybody. Venom makes a "high induction manifold" for the honda's, this is kinda what i'm thinking of.

pucancakes
Registered User
Posts: 85
(6/11/01 9:01:19 pm)
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head lights
have you checked into that yet? im having the housings made for me but i dunno what lights to put in them

AE86gzeAUS
Registered User
Posts: 359
(6/11/01 10:53:09 pm)
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Re: supercharger
with the supercharger, if you want to use the NA manifold, where do you plan to put the supercharger?, if you put it onto the exhaust side, lots of heat, lots of pipes, if you try to put it under the NA manifold, it won't go, not in the AE86.

you could maybe do like the HKS SC kit for 4AG, and put the SC between the head and the manifold, but you can't use an IC that way.
If you made up custom everything, you would prolly be best to turn the SC 90degrees so that the SC intake points up and the SC output down, then bolt the Throttlebody straight onto the input, and plumb the output to the IC and back to a custom short runner log type intake manifold. sort of like a twincarb manifold, with a 3inch round log of alloy, and the from IC pipe on the front.

That would be expensive and NOT worth it. If you wanna make custom stuff, TURBO IT.

The stock bits look restrictive, but the engine is powerful, and fuel efficient.

http://drive.to/ZE86Sprinter

MechaMegloManiac
Registered User
Posts: 1603
(6/12/01 12:19:52 am)
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Re: supercharger
It has allways seemed to me to be the best way to do it,
running the pipe straight from outlet to throttle,it would be a good idea to insulate the charger itself,preventing heatsoak from the engine,even better with a prog ECU,you can manage methanol injection and...the best part...control of the zinger,
allowing you to set an RPM trigger for activation,this would be very benificial for launching,set at say...3400RPM,launch at 4500,as the engine loads,it lags to the setting and BANG,the chargers on...limiting wheel spin and allowing optimim traction and accelleration.I wouldnt worry about intercooling,with the far lesser restriction,you'll probably find it runs cooler anyway.

Smuggla.

pentavalver@hotmail.com

John Harris
Registered User
Posts: 140
(6/12/01 2:30:18 am)
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Re: supercharger
I hope you are kidding about suggesting to no run the cooler......

MechaMegloManiac
Registered User
Posts: 1604
(6/12/01 5:42:22 am)
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Re: supercharger
No,actually,I'm not kidding.And unless you actually have data to dispute my statement,shut up,and stay out of my posts.
If you have a problem with me,do what others have requested
and E-MAIL me,dont come here causing trouble,this post sat well long enuff for you to answer,don't respond now I have made comment,go back to TOYMODS worm.Can you not see my E-MAIL????

Smuggla.

pentavalver@hotmail.com

Okibooney
Registered User
Posts: 33
(6/12/01 6:33:02 am)
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NO I/C.........
I agree with Smuggs on the lack of I/C....Although I don't have as great a knowledge as he does I can say that when I ran mine with the I/C in it's stock mounts for an AE86, It did no good sittin under the hood with out incoming air....I considered the whole supercharger hood scoop, but someone told me the some how there's a higher pressure zone created by air tryin to enter through the grill and the bonnet at the same time ....Lack of proper exit route?..It actually hurts the performance..I dunno...I did the Front mount intercooler and it wasn't hard to do just alot of piping. Oddly enough it took the lil' super bee a bit to get boost up...I know mine is ragged out but the space or cavity created by the excessive piping must've added to the lag like feeling...mind you when that pig started boostin I was in the high sloppy RPM's anyways and it took off like a bat outta hell....If you snuck up on it, somehow the sudden boost was blowin some of my piping off...I don't even run an I/C as I have too many problems keepin the car runnin with the get up....I would just go with out...get a cowl hood er whatever...do the washer in the rear hood mount trick...just bleed off any excess hot air....Good luck...

Booney

inMYpinion
Registered User
Posts: 9
(6/12/01 7:47:23 am)
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Re: supercharger
gee wizz John H., don't you know better then to question the king of (fill in the blank) no matter how politely or innocently you try to do it.

Foolboost
Registered User
Posts: 99
(6/12/01 8:18:06 am)
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Re: supercharger
Just to add some fuel to the fire, here is a high compression, non intercooled 10psi 4AZE artice. I'm a bit sceptical as they didn't specify the fuel used.

mauka86
Registered User
Posts: 108
(6/12/01 9:29:56 am)
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Question for AE86gzeAUS
You mentioned the HKS SC kit. Do you have any information on this kit or know of anyone who has info about it? I have this on my AE86 and don't know the specs or how to maintain the SC. Any information would be apprectiated. Thanks

John Harris
Registered User
Posts: 141
(6/12/01 2:13:36 pm)
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Re: supercharger
Yes, well I guess Toyota don't know what they're doing again, bloody idiots that they are. Don't need a stupid intercooler anyway I guess, just takes up room. Shall I quote the expert on 4AGZEs?

"I still dont know which 1 you are talking about,I have a ZE pulley that is around 1 centimeter larger in diameter than both the ST BT and 100K/W,now if by the term "pulley" you are both refering to the "harmonic balancer" making it larger will slow the water pump,hence your mention of a need to change it,it will also slow everything else,if you can explain how it wont,without being a smartarsed cockhead,I'll be glad to listen. "

Hmm, he certainly knows his stuff.

To suggest that you can run a forced induction setup, especially a roots blown setup on normal fuel and without intercooling is madness. I assume you actually want to make power right? Care to take your head out of your arse for maybe 2 seconds and look up Rob San's page?

John

MechaMegloManiac
Registered User
Posts: 1605
(6/12/01 2:56:26 pm)
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Re: supercharger
You tossers need a life...this post sat for 4 days and only got 1 responce...soon as I say something...it's a free for all..
Anyway...back to my post...running the setup I mentioned will,also allow the use of a blow off valve,this will help vent hot air regularly,and yes,an intercoller can add more restriction to the intake,causing more backpressure,raising heat,expanding air,limiting boost.
InMYpinion...whateva a pinion is...who are you coward...dont start on me jerk...either talk tech,or pissoff to whence you came.Gutless maggot.

Smuggla.

pentavalver@hotmail.com

AE86gzeAUS
Registered User
Posts: 361
(6/12/01 3:10:25 pm)
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Re: supercharger
Just from my own experience with my car, at times the outlet pipe on the Supercharger gets quite hot, almost too hot to touch, then it goes into the stock IC front mounted, and when it comes out the otherend, the pipe leading to the engine, is cool to touch, a LOT cooler than the SC outlet. I haven't used thermometer on it, but I would say the temp drop to be about half.

A guy in Denmark (I think) runs his ZE without an IC, but the air temp over there hovers around 15C. His car is on the AE86 pic pages here.

Smuggla did say that you could use methanol injection, if you wanted to play around, this may help the temp situation, but if you are running standard fuels, I would suggest that you keep the IC in some way.
The custom Mazda B16 Supercharged RT40 Corona I saw on Sunday had an Intercooler mounted up front, and it had massive dia pipes, like a turbo. Having long, big dia pipes will contribute to lag.

http://drive.to/ZE86Sprinter

mattjk
Registered User
Posts: 95
(6/12/01 3:28:12 pm)
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Re: supercharger
I got to agree. I don't think intercooling on a supercharger
is that essential, but on a turbo, it's a no-brainer. I've
measured the output temp on my MR2 S/C, and it was about
160*f before the S/C, and 140*f after intercooler. This
was under constant load. On my MR2 Turbo, it was 198*f
AFTER the intercooler. I was afraid to see what it was
before the intercooler.

On a side note, we measured my friend's 7mgte Supra with
a 3 row HKS intercooler on a cold misty night, and it went
down to 42*f! No kidding!

Anyhow, I've seen tons of supercharged engines without
intercoolers.

Matt

Edited by: mattjk at: 6/12/01 3:33:52 pm
AE86gzeAUS
Registered User
Posts: 363
(6/12/01 3:40:49 pm)
Reply
Re: supercharger
but Mat, that is in an MR2, where the IC acts as an interwarmer, the IC on an MR2SC does not do very much at all.

when you front mount them in an 86, 92, or 101 they work one hell of a lot better.

plus, a lot of the non-intercooled SC engines either run exotic fuels, in drags, or low boost on already strong engines. Yeah the Tacoma SC is not intercooled.

http://drive.to/ZE86Sprinter

John Harris
Registered User
Posts: 142
(6/12/01 5:28:05 pm)
Reply
Superchargers
Ok, so he mentioned methanol injection. Why would you do that when you can just throw on a bigger pulley. Bang for your buck, a GZE plus bigger pulley takes some beating. Why root around with something like that when you can buy a bigger second hand intercooler for $200 and front mount it?

Smuggla, you don't deserve a civil answer, in fact, any answer, but an intercooler actually CONDENSES the air by cooling it. It does not EXPAND the air. Pressure can be assumed to be the same throughout the manifold and intercooler.Granted, they offer some restriction, but the drop in temperature they provide and the subsequent denser charge more than compensate for this. I've seen plenty of examples of people fitting huge intercoolers and their boost figures dropping, but power figures increasing. Isn't what this post is all about? Getting more power?

The effect of this 2-3psi restriction on intake heat is negligable.

And what will venting the hot air regularly do? The millisecond you close the valve, oh, it's all hot again.

I entered this post when I saw you bullcrapping on about a motor you quite obviousy know nothing about. This forum is about tech, not your uninformed crap. This does not make me a gutless maggot.

John

shano2 
Registered User
Posts: 229
(6/12/01 5:40:33 pm)
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Re: supercharger
Smuggtosser,

I seem to recall that you stated ......"Superchargers generate more heat than turbo's".....and now you are suggesting running a SC without an intercooler, holy contradictions batman!!!!! Which one is it genius???



Later
Shane

------------------------------------------------------------------
Chaos, Panic and Disorder - My work here is done

MechaMegloManiac
Registered User
Posts: 1607
(6/12/01 6:14:21 pm)
Reply
Re: supercharger
Well..to the guys in this post that have actually done R&D,I'll continue,to discuss with you,I'm ignoring the cash in nonuthins
So,yes,as you've found,intercoolers front mounted are very efficient,but,thats not what this post is about,it's about short
cutting the dreaded factory intake,thinking more about it,I was considering the fitting in a F/D,but a rear drive set up could very easily use a IC if wanted,simply routed out to the front,across ,up..and to the throttle,same as a tubby set up.
It will also allow the use of a blow off valve,any pulley wheel desired...and meth injecton..,I have also seen a direct setup on a 78 celica,with an 18R...something like that,with 25deg c
ambiant,the intake was around 72c,no cooler in sight,no detonation and ran fine.So,the bottom line is,though intercoolers are benificial,in some instances,there not critical,such as this case in point.

Smuggla.

pentavalver@hotmail.com

rix86
Registered User
Posts: 24
(6/12/01 7:18:28 pm)
Reply
clarification
ok heres my idea, more detailed NO MORE BASHING EACH OTHER PLEASE, I NEED -NEEED- IDEAS, NOT A FUED.i want to cut the factory piping off at the flange where it bolts to the s/c unit inlet, build a smoother pipe out of aluminum or if i get rich stainless-(less heat transfer), with another flange to mount a bigger throttle body at the other end, and a tube going to an air filter-maybe an hks mega flow, for small size-. on the outlet side of the s/c would be another smoothed out custom pipe of metal (alum. or stainless, whatever) going as far as possible towards the front of the car to the radiator support, where it would go to a short silicon hose, int the intercooler,(the one i have is much better than the mr2 unit) and then back through towards the intake plenum. i have a chopped up factory s/c plenum for the donor flange. i did some research in the toyota repair manuals and factory parts from different year supras should support, safely, around 220 to 250 HP, in a 4 cylinder. i don't like the methanol idea because of the additional work that would require to plumb to work correctly. my dad had a 64 impala with a 327 tri power with nitro methane injection, and that bastard was always running lean, even with over sized secondary (outboard) carbs. at the most i feel that some RC engineering injectors or maybe even 2 aditional injectors in the plenum chamber would suffice. And i don't want to spin the thing TOO fast, because then the efficiency just drops into the dirt, as the screws are just whipping the snot out of the air. By the way, this is planned for an ae86, and i'm going to attempt this whole install on my rust bucket before i put it in my driver car. i will also be getting an hks vein pressure convertor, but i don't know if i'll be able to trick the factory ecu into handling this whole mess, which is why i asked abou the stand alone ecu- WHICH REMINDS ME_ if You see this Moto-P, does your freedom ecu have any sort of boost dependant timing retard functions, or rpm on/off switches? I called electromotive and they said that all their systems are sold with all options ready to go, and they start at $1637, and are compatible with newer yota sensors. And seeing that crank-fire ignition is more accurate the cam fire....... . So, now that anyone that has waded through this has a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish, are there any more ideas, or am i just sounding like a complete dumb-ass to you guys that know more about these things than i do. Keep in mind before you tear me up, that i would like to have a very neat and tidy engine bay,(if thats actually possible with some thing of this nature) and i would like it to reliable, and well sorted out. I would also like to get a small article published in a magazine, but thats definately the last reason i have for doing this.


Thanks to Moto-P for having this web site so's i can rave on this schtuff. And thanks to everybody for any ideas

MechaMegloManiac
Registered User
Posts: 1608
(6/12/01 8:46:01 pm)
Reply
Re: supercharger
Yes,well..I allready new what you were doing...but,put the throttle after the charger,not B4,and if that price is in USD for electomotive,thats a rip off,you could get MOTEC for that.

pentavalver@hotmail.com

John Harris
Registered User
Posts: 144
(6/13/01 1:06:03 am)
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Re: supercharger
A coupla things.

Stainless tubing should in fact be cheaper than ali, especially if you have to get bends and starting welding. However, ali is a better material for the job, as it's more heat transfer you want not less. Heat soak from the engine through these pipes is not an issue, as heat will in fact be trying to transfer out, not in.

Secondly, what do you mean add another 2 injectors? What for? The standard ECU is capable of providing well enough fuel, even with a big pulley up to 14psi with decent intercooling.

Your in the US right? A motec ECU will be very very much more than this, I can guarantee you. HOwever, if it's just a pulley and piping/intercooling mods your doing, programmable ECU's aren't going to give you heaps of power.

With a bigger pulley, all these mods to inlet piping, pods etc will certainly make a positive difference, but certainly not dramatic. The biggest single differences you can make are the pulley first, and secondly the intercooler.

John

AE86gzeAUS
Registered User
Posts: 365
(6/13/01 1:41:56 am)
Reply
Re: supercharger
I've read your last and I would suggest only through turboing it would you require additional injectors.
you can alter the SC outlet pipes, but like I said, I believe if you want to alter the SC inlets, you will have to rearrange the positioning of the SC unit. I'd say you could prolly roll the top out a few inches.

Do what you think will be best for the type of driving you want to do, I can tell you that the 4AGZE with 175mm pulley will takeout standard nissan SR20DET (SILVIA) powered cars quite easily in drag, the 0-60mph time will be the same, but the SC launch will have you a cars length in front everytime, in an AE86 that is. but over the quarter the SR20DET car will likely catch you. as the SC is not as "torquey" at higher revs.

Just Turbo the beast if you want ultimate power.

http://drive.to/ZE86Sprinter

aw101x
Registered User
Posts: 48
(6/13/01 1:44:20 am)
Reply
Re: supercharger
since i have no expieriance with boost...some things i have heard or read that seem to apply...
-putting the throttle as close to the engine as possible, smuggs is right, imagine as if the throttle was right after the charger, upon throttle opening the s/c would have to pressurize the entire track, it is not like hydrolics, it is not instant. putting the thrttle as close to the head as you can allows the entire track before it to hold pressurized air, and although there would still be a slight drop in pressure when the throttle opens it would not be nearly as severe. especially since you seem to be lenghtening the intake track as i understood.
-you mentioned putting in a short link of silicon piping. i have read other discussions where the general consensus was that because it could expand, you would loose some pressure. if this is just until the silicon expands and then pressure would come back up i do not know. thought i would mention it for your thoughts.

John Harris
Registered User
Posts: 145
(6/13/01 3:31:52 am)
Reply
Re: supercharger
Thats reminded me of something else.

Putting the throttle after the supercharger is not a good idea IMO. Turbo's maybe, superchargers I don't think so. The only setups I've seen this work on are centrifugal style ones with boost characteristics very close to that of turbos. The trouble is when you close the throttle, the boost has no where to go. Ok, so smuggs says use a blowoff valve, alright in theory, but in practice, you'd be venting the whole time at anything except wide open throttle. On a turbo, BOV's work great, as when you back off the throttle, the turbo spools down, but with a SC, boost is dependent only on revs. There are ways around this problem as Shano2 will tell you, but his methods and reasons are particular to his setup. However, I don't know of any advantage you have of mounting the throttle after the SC, but can think of a whole lot of disadvantages.

Aw101x, the length the inlet tract is only going to affect throttle response, ie the time it takes to fill the plenum with air, which is measured in milliseconds on a supercharged engine. On the other hand, there is a school of thought that talks about an ideal plemun volume size, and as far as I know, it's close to twice engine capacity.

John

JSPEC PERFORMANCE
Registered User
Posts: 90
(6/13/01 3:16:20 pm)
Reply
Re: supercharger
WELL THE SITE WITH THE HIGH COMP KIT IS MY SITE....AND THE FUEL USED ON THE SET UP WE TALKED ABOUT WAS 96 OCTANE THATS THE HIGHEST THEY HAVE IN MALAYSIA........I THINK JAPAN IS ONE OF THE HIGHEST OCTANE COUNTRIES OUT THERE RUNNING JET FUEL IN CARS NO WONDER THEY GOT NO EMMISIONS HAHA ANYWAYS .....THE SET UP WORKS FINE NO PING NO KNOCKING .....IM ACTUALLY ABOUT DONE WITH MINES HERE IN THE STATES SO ILL LET U KNOW HOW IT RUNS ON SUNOCO 94.I DONT SEE ANY PROBLEMS I GOT A GTR SKYLINE FUEL PUMP A INTERCOOLER AND A APEX AFC JUST INCASE BUT I THINK I WONT NEED THE AFC AFTER ALL.......U CAN ALWAYS GET YOUR PISTONS COATED IF YOUR SCARED OF A DETENATION ....I THINK ITS 25 BUCKS A PISTON AT THERMAL BARRIER COATING ...WORTH IT IF U PLANNING ON RUNNING 87 OCTANE ......................

MechaMegloManiac
Registered User
Posts: 1613
(6/13/01 3:21:36 pm)
Reply
Re: supercharger
BOV's can be set to any PSI,they only open at that setting,if you want 10PSI,you set the BOV for 12PSI,it's only going to vent for a second,as soon as the PSI reaches the setting,its not going to vent under any throttle what so ever,it's an impossibility,it would be great if those who dispute would build proof before doing so,a BOV does not discriminate,it runs on boost,it doesnt care what provides it,same as my BLACKTOP
running on a 100K/W ECU,it has no idea what it's managing,it works perfectly,I can see many advantages to a BOV,no disadvantages.

Smuggla.

pentavalver@hotmail.com

John Harris
Registered User
Posts: 146
(6/13/01 4:04:47 pm)
Reply
Bovs
As usual, you have trouble understanding, even reading, the written word. At no point in my post did I say that Bovs had no advantages. I was actually pointing out that a throttle body after the SC with a BOV has no advantages, and in fact would be quite difficult to get to work. And no, I don't need to build it to test the theory, I would consider that a total waste of my time.

Get over yourself.

John

JSPEC PERFORMANCE
Registered User
Posts: 93
(6/13/01 5:21:13 pm)
Reply
Re: supercharger
wow man this is suppose to be discussions not fighting..e are all adults...we all have the right to voice our opionions ...come on fellas............save the anger for when them hondas are next to u haha ...........anyways .i got a question can a bov be put on a gze engine....? ive seen it done........dont know if it works or not becuase i thought the bov was suppose to be before the throttle body but on this gze in a ae86 it was on the pipe after the intercooler going into the intake? does that make any sense of was it just show n tell the car was parked the owner was just showing the engine off..i didnt bother to ask him cause he had a cusco pully and not a nevo so i knew he didnt know to much about the engine haha......anyways can anyone elaborate a bit.no fighting haha

MechaMegloManiac
Registered User
Posts: 1615
(6/13/01 6:36:21 pm)
Reply
Re: supercharger
It wont work as a "pull through" throttle setup,but would work fine as a "pressure to" throttle setup.
Pissoff back to TOYMODS Harris,you Bill Sherwood wanna be,
I told you to E-mail me if you have a problem with my experience,are you feckin blind?cant you see it?? go away MRNOBODY,no1 is listening to you.

Smuggla.

pentavalver@hotmail.com

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