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MechaMegloManiac
Registered User
Posts: 55
(6/23/01 8:52:17 pm)
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What to do? ( a question for bill )
OK,here's the problem,Bill has posted a dyno reading I say is
bogus,any1 could feed a program perameters that gives that reading,so...is it legit or not? can some1 ask him what specifications yield such a result?? especially since he is running carbs...I'm not looking to fight,I never am,though as you may have noticed,I never back down,not when I know I'm correct,so,...can some1 find out...it would be interesting,I need some specs to change my mind about the "power output" of the Formula Atlantic engines,because,everything I understand of the 4age,250HP,though not impossible,is not feasible either,so...lets get to the bottom of it,1ce and for all.
Smuggla.
Edited by: ultrasonic2 at: 6/25/01 12:24:43 pm
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ultrasonic2
*Moderator*
Posts: 558
(6/23/01 9:01:13 pm)
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Re: What to do?
i must admit i would like to know too. i would agree with you... Show me the dyno! not the program which he used to make these numbers.
But at the same time i dont know if i could be stuffed moderating all your posts which would follow Bill posting the info.
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gtiboy
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Posts: 168
(6/23/01 9:54:38 pm)
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Power Output
I know that the Cosworth engines that where the rival atlantic engine make similar power & have personally seen a 1800CC version make an honest 280HP so believe that it is possible,however I never seen a toyota dyno'd but have heard figures here from guy's running them in Fraser's etc of 230HP plus on carbs & would believe this to be true knowing the engine builder & the accuracry of his dyno.
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MechaMegloManiac
Registered User
Posts: 58
(6/23/01 9:58:16 pm)
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Re: What to do?
Sorry Ultra,I just deal in facts...have you seen club4ag lately?
if you keep censoring participants,you'll lose the real enthusiasts,check that post,I'm asking a pretty simple Q,what components are required for that output??
Smuggla.
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ultrasonic2
*Moderator*
Posts: 560
(6/23/01 10:24:13 pm)
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Re: What to do?
i wasn't saying it couldn't be done i believe it can...It's just well.... talk is cheap show me some proof.
Smuggla... Yeah i know ... you dont see us moderating anyone else do you? I think you have good knowledge and it would be a shame to see you kicked off our site too. But if you keep on abusing people you dont leave us with much choice. You dont need to post all the carp you do ... why can't you just post "i think your wrong and this is why blah blah ..." instead of calling everyone dick heads and saying they know shit ?
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Bill Sherwood
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Posts: 28
(6/25/01 1:26:48 pm)
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Re: What to do?
A question for the members here, not smuggler.
Do you want me to answer this?
It'll only be the same old stuff that I'm replying to. I have answered all these questions before - some on other forums - yet he chooses to ignore me and deliberately miss-read what I write.
I'm quite happy to answer anything at all, but again it's only re-hashing what's already been written many times.
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Wildcard NZ
ToySpeed Founder
Posts: 840
(6/25/01 1:37:03 pm)
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Re: What to do? ( a question for bill )
Yes, I would like to hear the answer please, as I don't remember reading it elsewhere, if you don't
want to retype the same old stuff, you can always post a link directly to your post on this matter elsewhere.
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Bill Sherwood
Registered User
Posts: 29
(6/25/01 1:40:39 pm)
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Re: What to do? ( a question for bill )
No worries - I'm in Germany right now, about to go to bed, gimme a couple of days to get back to my home base (UK at the moment) and bash out a reply.
I think that most of the links were on club4ag, and they are older than the forum software goes back. But fortunately I keep copies of everything like that so I can just cut & paste as needed.
Home page here
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MechaMegloManiac
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Posts: 64
(6/25/01 1:46:03 pm)
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Re: What to do?
Stop going in circles,it's only just come to light that you use a PC program to state Bill Sherwood "facts" for want of a better term.The "engine" you are drawing your arguments on,does not even exist,none of this has been spoken of B4,every time I mention specs,you do exactly what you are doing now,talk in circles,obviously your buying time to e-mail some1 for answers,just post the SPECIFICATIONS you fed that program
to conjure up that dyno chart,ultra edited this post.and I'm sure others a watching,though they dont want to get involved,so,spit it out,I'm sorry I dont have time to play
"pretends engineers" but I'm putting my blacktop back together on Wednesday,does that count? just post the specs,stop buying time.
Smuggla.
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ultrasonic2
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Posts: 566
(6/25/01 2:20:41 pm)
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Re: What to do?
yeah i would be interested too.
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alonzo69
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Posts: 104
(6/25/01 5:53:15 pm)
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Re: What to do?
round and round the wurld aarround....
alastair@guyofyourdreams.com
icq : 101761410
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Bill Sherwood
Registered User
Posts: 30
(6/27/01 7:29:55 am)
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Re: What to do?
Okay guys, once again I have to correct a large number of either delusional mistakes or deliberate errors by smuggler.
This is getting really boring, but you've asked to explain and so I will. I seriously doubt that smuggler will take any notice though as he never does no matter how many times I prove him wrong.
" especially since he is running carbs"
I have never said I was running carbies. The only time I've mentioned carbies and my new 4AGE's is when I talked about gutting a pair of dead Dellorto's to turn them into cheap throttle bodies. The other time is when I wrote about when I drove down from Auckland to Rotorua to visit Jamie Aislabie to talk about such things, and he mentioned that when the Formula Atlantic rules required them to use carbies the best he ever got was 238hp. When the rules changed he said that he went up to 242hp, but the big difference was that at 6000rpm the engine was making a full 20hp more than when it was on carbies.
"... the "power output" of the Formula Atlantic engines,because,everything I understand of the 4age,250HP,though not impossible,is not feasible either, ..."
If the rules haven't changed much in FA in the last few years, then I can't see why someone like Aislabie coulnd't squeeze another 8hp from his engines. Three years of oil developement would probably do that. I last saw him in 1998, so that's three years for another few hp, shouldn't be a bother at all.
Ultrasonic2
"Show me the dyno! not the program which he used to make these numbers."
I have said many times that the engine is not together yet, but hopefully will be around the end of the year. You may well have been reading too much of what smuggler says, and as you have seen and will see, that's far from a smart thing to take notice of.
You may also ask smuggler the same thing, as his engines & car have never seen a dyno, never seen a race track, never seen a 1/4 mile, etc.
"I'm asking a pretty simple Q,what components are required for that output??"
The original question was - "what perameters were supplied for this conclusion?" to which I replied "... I got the software directly from the US, www.performancetrends.com."
That answer was ignored, and again smuggler asked - "You skirted my question,what perameters gave that result?" to which I again replied that the demo (which contains all the parameters) was available as a free download. You don't have to ask me if you can check for yourself, it's all there.
He then chose to ignore that yet again, and came up with question at the top of this paragraph and blames me for him not checking out where I said the answer was. For the NZ'ers here I'll answer the question here later though, as they have asked it without blaming me for them getting it wrong.
".. it's only just come to light that you use a PC program to state ..."
No, it's common knowledge that I have been posting such things for over a year. Smuggler has seen that since at least September last year so I don't know what he's on about.
I've said this many times before, but he still continues to ignore it - With my job I do not spend much time in Australia and so obviously can't get much done. Since the start of December I have only been in Aus for just under four weeks, and of course when I'm home I have a lot of other things to do other than to much around with cars. I have a life, such as it is ...
The reason I use this particular program is that it's about the best that you can get, and as I've said before it's guaranteed to be about 95% accurate. I imagine that no matter how hard I push, I cannot get a real engine dyno into the overhead locker in a 747, nor will they let me take a 4AGE as carry on baggage. So, when I'm working I have to resort to a program that is damn near as accurate as a real dyno, and it of course lets me try thing that would take ages & lots of money to do in the real world in a couple of minutes.
So how do I know that it's that good?
Using the program I spent a heap of time mucking around with the specs on my racing car engine. After a couple of months of doing so, we tried them out on the car and I was pleasantly suprised to find that the program predicted a full 20hp odd power increase and the car on a chassis dyno also got a full 20hp increase at the wheels! (90hp up to 110hp) This means that the engine was making a bit more than the 20hp more it was supposed to, which was very good indeed.
I also tested a new type of inlet trumpet that I thought up and I think that it might have made up the difference between the 20hp and the real (25hp??) that the engine really made. For sure I could see the difference at the inlet, because on the previous runs there was a good 3" of fuel stand-off ( fuel vapour 'fogging' the inlet trumpets) at around 8000rpm. With the new trumpets there was still fogging, but it was all inside trumpet, which is what I expected as that's the way I intended it to work.
I have also tested it on my AE-86, and again it behaves in exactly the same way that he program predicts.
So is it good? Yes it is.
"every time I mention specs,you do exactly what you are doing now,talk in circles"
It's pointless as he either never reads what I write or deliberately distorts it. He also, no matter what I write, makes it out to be wrong.
As was posted to me by a friend - "Never argue with an idiot - they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
So why should I bother with someone that either doesn't understand what I write or chooses to ignore it?
"Dont you find it bizarre that people actually think you have built all these engines you dribble on about..you should be ashamed."
How is it my fault that people don't read what I write? Smuggler is certainly most guilty of that, and here's yet more proof ...
"THE MAXIMUM TORQUE A 4AGE CAN MAKE IS 137nm,what crap..."
Yes, it is crap because I have never wrote that!
For some reason he can't work out the difference between metric and imperial units. This was pointed out to him specifcally by Freezup on the first page of the "lumpy cams' thread, but again he chose to either ignore it or just doesn't understand it.
What I have said in the past is that "The most torque that you'll get out of a 4AGE is 148ft-lbs".
147ft-lbs is 200.64nm's of torque, and it seems that I may have been wrong about that - I think that I may have worked out a way to get more like 155ft-lbs out of the two new engines that I'm building, but I will of course be dyno testing them to check this out.
The only time I've mentioned the number '137' is when I wrote that smuggler's engine was making a maximum of 137ft-lbs of torque. I worked this out again by using the software dyno program, as smuggler has said that he reckons his car can do a mid 14sec 1/4 mile. (or thereabouts) I know the weight of his car, the gearing, etc, so I can work backwards quite accurately and come up with the requirements of 137ft-lbs and about 185hp. So, whilst he doesn't actually know how much power his engine has, I do!.
He claims to have thrown a couple of con-rods out the side of the block because the engine is making so much power, but yet cannot answer how this is the case with the engine making only 137ft-lbs and 185hp. I can't believe that Toyota would make an engine so weak!
"you also say you have 15 years racing experience,is that counting this or last season,where you havent even been in the country??...good experience,more lies...so now you got your escape route...and your gone..."
No, I've said that I have over 16 years competition experience, and I'm now in year eleven of track racing experience. I have written that several times.
I have also written several times that I raced in Aus twice last year. I have not raced this year, but I will be in just over a month and also again towards the end of the year.
"not to mention the fact you owe me 10 grand,dont you feel a fool?"
No, I'm feeling pretty good about everything actually. I'M not the one that's been kicked off a number of forums.
In the real world, you would have to actually compete to win any prizes, so I have no idea what he is on about. As I have said recently on this forum, I have yet to decide whether or not to be bothered to do the race, as the only reason it was to take place was to find out who stayed on the club4ag forums. That has now been decided, so the point is moot - Why should I bother?
"I'll send some pics of what I have done,I'll also answer any questions you may have,after all,a picture says a 1000 words."
My site, at last count, has 653 pictures.
How 'bout that then?
"I'm giving you until midnite Sunday to remove the posts you locked,if there still there,I'm going to make a mess of your site,I dont think your in any postion to call me a fool junior,so get to it,or I'll start giving you some work to do."
He's also spammed my guest book about ten times with crap.
Wot a champion.
Ulrasonic2
"I think you have good knowledge and it would be a shame to see you kicked off our site too."
Ah-hem ...
You might want to think about that after reading some of the stuff that he's written before -
- "I measured the difference in diameter between a 14" wheel and a 17" and got 8" "
Even a school child knows about Pi and the diameter of a circle.
- "but I dissagree with the "keep exhaust gasses hot" theory"
Thereby making the afterburner in a jet engine completely arse-about in practice.
- "oil pressure relief holes in con rods"
- "A 3SGE is not sub two-litre"
1998cc is less than 2000cc in anyone's book.
- "by the way it performs now, I have the fastest "road registered factory trim atmospheric sub 2 lt on the planet".
The car has never been on a track, dyno, etc. He also always changes the rules when someone challenges him about it; see this very forum for an example. (The 13 second Honda one)
- "along with supposed "Professional engine builders" I have no respect for engine builders,"
Un-huh ...
- "The sparkplug go 'thermonuclear' .."
Yet we don't all die from radiation poisoning when using iridium plugs.
- "the forces you feel are known as "Centrfugal Torsion"
No such 'force' in the real world.
- "no such thing as a viscous coupling diff"
Plenty around the place.
- "You should be @#%$ sorry Gino your rude prick <snip> Like I say ,if you speak here do it it english,or piss right off"
A completely unprovoked attack on a club4ag visitor. So much for "never attacking enyone 1st..."
- "I can build you a long engine that will produce the same as a FORMULA ATLANTIC for $3000 AUD"
But only if it has to make power for a couple of minutes before shredding itself.
- "just another fantasy driven fullosheet wanker,your nuthin but a cheque writing biatch..why dont you take your cars and torch them..your an embarrassment to true enthusiasts,your da KING allright KINGKOKHEAD."
Yet another well thought out retort.
- "Cosworth and Ford have NEVER had reliability,not EVER"
Despite that terrible handicap, they've managed to win many championships at all levels around the world for decades.
- "But,B4 you carry on,best you learn english,no1 is paying me to translate your pittifull ramblings,please use the spell checker,you NEED it"
One of those words to look up would be' hypocrite', wouldn't it?
- "If thats so,why do cars accellerate when they lose traction upon braking?"
Uh, they don't accererate, they just don't slow down very quickly.
- "the less traction,the greater the velocity in the direction of momentum".
This makes sense, um .. somewhere?
- "A 4AGE turbo will out accelerate a 3SGE turbo because the engine has less inertia to spin up"
Huh?
There's a whole bunch more than that, but I couldn't be arsed cut & pasting them.
Anyway, enough of that, to the FA engine.
As I've said many times before, all the parameters that make it up are freely available on the www.performancetrends.com web site. I'm not going to repeat them.
The bottom end is from FA bits - I have a brand new SCAT crank, ex-FA rods with ARP bolts (going to use new ones of course), and brand new Mahle-TRD pistons. I have a 7-rib block in very good condition to use, and will be making up a dry-sump for it myself. You cannot have a FA engine without a dry sump, as the oiling system on the 4AGE is not good enough for really high hp/revs that the FA engines make.
The extractors will be hand made from mandrel bends and straight pipe and then ceramic coated inside & out.
The EFI system will be a MoTeC M4 Pro.
I have yet to really finalise the inlet system, but it's most likely going to be not the gutted Dellorto's I mentioned before but some alloy tube milled out to the right diameter or perhaps the 20v throttle bodies I have. I'm not sure if they'll be short enough though, have to wait and see.
Part of the reason why I am not sure about the inlet yet is that with the amount of work I have to do to the head I'm not sure how long I'm going to be able to make the inlet system. It may turn out to be impossible to use the 30v TB's as they'll be too long.
What's to be done is to dig in completely new inlet and exhaust ports into the head - they'll be coming down at between 35° and 45° into the head from the horizontal, and so there's a crapload of milling and filling to be done. It's been done before by some people in Melbourne that I know, and they said that on an engine dyno their 4AGE was making 294hp at 10,000rpm. That sounds waaay to high to me, but even allowing for a fair bit of dyno error, etc, it's clear that they have a mighily powerful engine there.
I'm hoping that with my trick little inlet trumpets I can pick up a few HP than what's on the dyno graph.
One of the most important areas of the program is the port flows.
Since the head has not been built yet, I had to make a guess as to what it woud flow, and I did that based on the small port head I have that was flowed on a very accurate machine.
The head at 10" of water flowed -
0.1" lift - 90cfm
0.2" lift - 153cfm
0.3" lift - 186cfm
0.35" lift - 195cfm
That's with standard valves; the FA engine has 2mm larger valves so I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that if the ports are also increased to allow for the bigger valves that it'll flow that much better. The curtain area is increased by about 7% on the inlet and about 8% on the exhaust by doing that, so I bumped up the flow figures by that amount.
The downporting also makes the head a lot more efficient, and so I increased the flow figures again, and this is the estimate that I'm using -
0.1" lift - 99cfm
0.2" lift - 165cfm
0.3" lift - 202cfm
0.35" lift - 215cfm
0.4" lift - 222cfm
I think that it'll be at least that much, probably more. I wanted to be a little conservative to make sure. If I bump them up a bit more then I'm getting close to that 294hp that the Melbourne guy reckons he's getting.
The cams are about 300° for the inlet and about 320° for the exhaust, and both are about 0.400" lift. (more on the inlet and less on the exhaust)
This brings me back to the head - As I mentioned, I may have trouble getting the inlet down to the length that I need - though I'll find a way - and this again is where the FA engines are normally more limited, as they have to use much longer ones that what I can get away with. They also cannot downport the head like I'm going to, and so I reckon that the power I'm aiming for is not unreasonable at all.
FWIW, the smallport head that I gave the flows for above flows '213hp' according to the dyno guy. On the software dyno I get 209hp - that's close enough for me.
And as for real engines, as I've written before I've build up Toyota 3K's, 4K's, 4AGE's, Datsun L20's, L16's, Mazda 323 (dunno the engine type number), and maybe a couple of others I can't remember.
To come are at least two more 4AGE's (probably four actually), 3SGE, Lexus 1UZFE, Toyota 1MZFE, and a couple of Suzuki GTi 1300's. I have five cars right now - an AE-86, a KP-61, a KE-55 rally car, two Sports 1300 racing cars (one a Mallock Mk31 under construction) and in August I'm heading over to Auckland to put the order in on a Fraser.
Happy now?
Home page here Edited by: Bill Sherwood at: 6/27/01 7:34:07 am
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ultrasonic2
*Moderator*
Posts: 576
(6/27/01 8:10:26 am)
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Re: What to do?
Crap i can't post now EZ-borad has just run out of space :-(
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MechaMegloManiac
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Posts: 76
(6/27/01 12:34:35 pm)
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Re: What to do?
LoL @ Ultra,thx for all that Bill,including the unescassary slag session.
As for that wheel thing...I'm not sure if you understand what I did...it wasnt all that technical,I simply put 2 wheels next to each other,from valve cap on both,rolled the 2 wheels 1 single rotation,the 17" wheel was around 8" ahead of the 14".it may not have actualy been 8",it could have been 7",or maybe 8.237012431" ahead,see,I didnt even measure it accurately,I simply meant by that statement,that when next to a car with the same gearing and RPM,the 17" wheels will travell the car further than the other,i.e,it will have "longer legs" which,with my shorter ratio 6,will offer a distinct advantage.Now,I expect you to come up with a 1GIG text on algorithmic calculus to prove me wrong,but,dont bother,I did it in a fashion I understand and I think most others would too.
Pics on your site...mmm,thats beaut,the only problem with that is there not your parts by majority and you have given all who go to that site,the false impression that you have an array of engines (including a ZE) by the way you have big noted yourself,(you cant even weld) I can,I learned in Highschool,(who's education was wasted now),you have NEVER built an engine,saying so simply makes you a liar,even the engines you paid to have built fell apart,and this "super engine" your about to...err...1 day build is going to run on "EX
RACING PARTS",only a moron would buy parts that were 1ce buzzed stupid,how are you going to feel if and when those rods do what mine did?(dont say that wont happen) because it can,no matter what precautions you take.
Pistons,you didnt mention a C/R,maybe you should spend less time on your tiring banter and more on specifics,I have run 12.5:1 and that C/R offers little in gains,it may though,with more cylinder filling.Forged is good,but,there heavier and more prone to scuffing,what ring groove clearance do they have?
Are they set to take the TRD low friction items? Do you know of them and how they work? there very clever.
Oiling,you state that a wet sump is not suitable,though I have seen near 10000RPM with 1 and never had a problem,if you want a dry sump have 1,but please stop implying theres numerous benifits,there are none,TRD offers a wet sump kit,the only the primary reason drysumps are used is ground clearance,couldnt really have a wet sump in an open wheeler could we.Oil pressure is oil pressure,the components dont care how its supplied.
A 7 rib block? is it a magic 1 no1 else has? No,ofcourse not,no power there.
Induction,you want short runners?...ok,great,but,I feel theres something your not taking into consideration,something some1 such as yourself should be taking note of.
MOTEC??? Hhmmm...the last time you mentioned this engine,you were talking carbs,now it's 32bit sequential,or,maybe now you will just say your NEVER said that.
That leaves us with the head,nothing I can dispute there,I dont make things up,but,as it only exists in theory,the same rule applies to it that applies to every other engine builder on the planet."put it together,suck it and see".
The other thing I see is that your not mentioning 250 HP...
I never disputed 220,Chris O'Shannessy is making that,but where the hell did 294HP come from?? A guy in Melbourne?
never heard anything about that...but just remember my car does a 6 second 1/4 ;) so...I geuss anything is possible.
You want me banned from this forum also? atleast your consistent,you got your way,I'm off clubg,its now gone
the way you wanted it,full of missguided info and unanswered questions,I'm actually glad now,you did me a favour,I was spending too much time trying to help others,I've shut up quite a bit,havent you noticed..I figured its no skin off my nose,I know what I'm doing,now,if you'll excuse me,I have a Blacktop to prep.Cheers.
Smuggla.
P.S,your info on F/D's was a little misconstrued.F/D boxes,especially the Toyotas,lose around 9-12% max,I would say the Hondas may be around 15%,from the mannor in which they have devised there geardrives.
Also,I dont agree with F/D losing out with the more power,you need only see the Euro Supers with 300hp,there tractability
is superb,torque stter is far easier to control with 2 hands than 1 foot,1 need only compare a 1100KG F/D with an 1100KG R/D and the pendulum effect is more prone to the R/D as inertia is effecting the fundamentals of power delivery,the diff is a deffinate problem 1ce traction is lost.
Probably best to be summed up by,the advantages of each being,
4/D: dirt
R/D:strip
F/D:curcuit.
just my opinion.
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ultrasonic2
*Moderator*
Posts: 577
(6/27/01 1:00:29 pm)
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Re: What to do?
hummm bills is longer.....
maybe you should read some more books smuggla :P
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MechaMegloManiac
Registered User
Posts: 77
(6/27/01 3:51:44 pm)
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Re: What to do?
Nahhh...I've got a life Ultra,no time for book...
Bill says,"no such thing as centrifugal torsion"
observe.ivv.nasa.gov/nasa/space/centrifugal/centrifugal2a.html
www.sunysuffolk.edu/~geeg98/index5.html
www.bmwgroup.com/e/0_0_www_bmwgroup_com/7_innovation/7_2_aid/archiv-20/background.shtml
www.seko.ca/944more/torsbar1.htm
www.dayonmfg.com/torsion_springs.html
www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/tors/tors.html
www.torsionbalancesupplies.co.uk/
These are a few of the 180000 odd links I found pertaining to
centrifugal/torsion,from what I can recall,I was trying to explain the action of large diameter wheels,and why they can better distribute torque,an example I gave was trying to turn
a push bike wheel whilst its spinning,I simply termed it that,because I cant think of another way to describe the
forces you feel when carrying out the example,a wheel creates centrifugal force,turning the wheel creates torsion,"twist",hence,"centrifugal torsion",if any 1 else BESIDES DILL can coin it better,go ahead.
Lets not forget Bills,"Assymtopic" curves,which,when I researched, had nothing to do with heat transition,or twin charging.
Q/Whats black,crisp and sits smoking infront of a PC.
A/Bill Sherwood
Smuggla.
Edited by: Wildcard NZ at: 6/27/01 4:02:25 pm
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ultrasonic2
*Moderator*
Posts: 578
(6/27/01 4:06:53 pm)
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Re: What to do?
Did anyone actually read all of what bill and smuggla said ?
if so ....
Can you please summaries what they said in two lines ?
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MR KWIK
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Posts: 1
(6/27/01 4:35:58 pm)
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Re: Shall I school you again,smuggla........?
I remember that post quite well...
Yes I can "coin the phrase" a little better,if you looked at the headline on the 1st link you posted above,you would find the phrase in rather large letters...INERTIA...
I suppose I'll have to refresh your memory 1ce again...
A post from Club4ag:
Big wheels and torque...has any1 ever held a pushbike wheel by the hub and spun it?If you have you'll know turning the wheel can be tricky...the forces you feel are known as "Centrifugal Torsion"( no it's INERTIA! )...now a bmx wheel is somewhat difficult to move compared to a racer wheel...this is because the larger diameter spreads the torsion over a wider area( hmm I'd like to hear this explanation but we never will )...the same as a large car wheel...as well as this...a 14" has alot more rubber...rubber is a pliable object...it's the bain of high performance handling...Rubber isn't very good at applying force to the road( it's not? then what is then? )...the best option is to get rid of it...( I don't know about you but I rather like rubber tires
Well smuggla, the laws of physics still haven't changed since you posted that and yes the force you feel is still known as inertia
All this time searching the net and the concept has stiil escaped you....
Looking forward to your reply
Bob
"Racing,because other sports only require 1 ball" |
MechaMegloManiac
Registered User
Posts: 80
(6/27/01 5:55:22 pm)
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Re: Shall I school you again,smuggla........?
You still stalking me old man,I thought you did the automotive world a favour and had a heart attack.I never said inertia wasnt involved,if you werent such a stubborn old cunt and read the links I posted,you may realise that,inertia,is a different force to what I am speaking of,"inertia,is multiplied in a straight line by a rotating mass,such as a flywheel:-
encarta.msn.com/find/Concise.asp?ti=002A5000
If you were to read my links,you might just understand you actually cannot feel inertia,i.e,holding the wheel straight,inertia must be harnessed,1ce this is done the inertia takes the harnessed body to "momentum",this is what is felt when you turn the wheel,because you are then changing the direction of "centrifuge",what your hands are feeling and more importantly,the "axel" is "torsion","twisting",you understand that? "Centrifugal torsion",I've told you B4 crusty the clown,your too old and ignorant to skool me,get your facts straight B4 you try to tell me I'm wrong,you finnished your super GE yet?? I'm about to slap mine up again,now stop making a fool of yourself,go wipe that dripple from your lip,change your Depend diaper and get some sleep.
Ultra,its not that hard,have a look at the links and take some of it in,you put these forces to work everytime you drive.
Smuggla.
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kiwisx
Registered User
Posts: 3
(6/27/01 8:55:19 pm)
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Re: Shall I school you again,smuggla........?
Might want to check those links cause they appear to be crap.
one was for measuring surface tension and another was about atomic physics or something out of this world.
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alonzo69
Registered User
Posts: 106
(6/27/01 8:59:21 pm)
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shall i school you all?
gawd. what is this.
i dunno how many physics majors you guys have, maybe you know more than me, I did (and passed!) U.E physics, and I have never heard of "Centrifugal Torsion"
I think one or more ppl here are getting mixed up between Inertia, Centripetal Force, and Centrifugal force.
And no im not gona explain what those are, cos im too lazy and it would remind me of high school.
Smuggla i looked up a couple of those websites, and i didnt see anything related to "centrifugal torsion".
that is unless its some sort of slang that you came up with smuggsta?
This probably has no effect on your stupid argument, but i love to get my two cents in.
cheers,
alasta
alastair@guyofyourdreams.com
icq : 101761410
Edited by: alonzo69 at: 6/27/01 9:01:23 pm
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MechaMegloManiac
Registered User
Posts: 87
(6/28/01 11:36:54 am)
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Re: shall i school you all?
KIWISX,that is a few of 78000 links,I'm simply trying to show how many variations in torsion there are,torsion is twisting,chassis suffer from torsion,thats why they have torsion bars...
Alonzo...centripetal forces move inward,nothing to do with this,as I said,if some1 can term it better go ahead...but,its not "inertia" as MRKWIK said,and if it does not exist,why can you feel it?,Why do the centres of alloy wheels crack out?
What is the force on your wrists when you turn the wheel?
Smuggla.
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MR KWIK
Registered User
Posts: 2
(6/28/01 1:50:43 pm)
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Re: smuggla quit while you're aahh..behind...
Yeah guys I think you'll find smuggla's ummm...full of it.
Centrifugal torsion ...smuggla, why not READ some of the info on that link also...you may learn something but, if you haven't yet I suppose there's little hope of that happening.
Sorry smugs ol'boy it is Inertia .Did you know the Latin definition seems to describe yourself? Maybe that's why you don't understand...
Latin definition :lack of art or skill,ignorance.
Maybe I've moved ahead a little too fast for you smuggla so,I'll try to explain this to you again
The "force" you feel when accelerating the "bike" wheel
would be better described as "rotational inertia"( I know these are big words but I'm sure you'll comprehend )
The resistance to rotational acceleration:Rotational Inertia.
Picture this,2 wheels of the same weight but 1 wheel has twice the diameter...wich wheel is easier to accelerate?
That's right,the smaller dia wheel.How is this possible?Because the smaller dia wheel has less rotating inertia
Now then,when you go back to the "engineers" that are working on you engine why don't you explain your "theory" to them but,be ready for a little laughter
Before you delve in your thoughtful? reply,why don't you explain how the "bigger wheel spreads torsion"
You've never explained that yet
BTW smuggla you may want to refrain from the swearing & name calling before you get yoself banned from other boards(like this one)
C'mon now you can argue like an adult can't you?????????
Old? (3 maybe I am to you but,experience comes with age
Seems you're showing your age everytime you post eh?
I'll be back....
Bob
"Racing,because other sports only require 1 ball" Edited by: MR KWIK at: 6/28/01 3:11:25 pm
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MechaMegloManiac
Registered User
Posts: 88
(6/28/01 3:05:49 pm)
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Re: smuggla quit while you're aahh..behind...
I have explained how the larger diameter wheel spreads it...
its to do with more rim,less rubber,I went through all of this a long time ago,then I had to put up with gimps like you saying 17's are worse for performance that 14's with 60 series rubber,thats just plain crap,so I'm not going through that dribble again.Besides,I thought I told you to e-mail me if you have a problem with me...didnt I?? your back to your same old tricks,just stirring crap,you have no arguement,your just an irritation,nothing of value to offer,now,EITHER E-MAIL ME OR FECKOFF,you know what they say,cant teach an old dog new tricks,now go over to club g and help out,you were only ever there to stir crap,since I'm not there,nor are you??Just go away old fool,your just jealous,your old and crusty and I have youth and more tech than Bond,now go away,your offering nothing,as usuall,now step off,you never know,it might just be you that gets banned.
Smuggla.
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MR KWIK
Registered User
Posts: 3
(6/28/01 3:27:25 pm)
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Re: smuggla quit while you're aahh..behind...
Gee, aren't we a little touchy.
No smuggla I'll never E-mail you and I would suggest that others don't either since you always threaten to E-mail-bomb people & threaten to wreak havoc on others websites & message boards.
(that's what happens when smuggla is found to be full of it
So you can stop saying "E-mail me"...I & many others won't!
And no I never said "17's are worse for performance than 14's w/60 series"(just that the heavier/larger dia wheel was harder to accellerate)
BTW ,I edited my post to clear up the bull about your "centrifugal torsion theory"
No you never did explain your other "theory" How bigger wheels spread torsion .
Let's hear it...we're waiting.....
You may want to stop crying..."go away,go away"...it sounds like you're having a bad dream...
Bob
"Racing,because other sports only require 1 ball" Edited by: MR KWIK at: 6/28/01 3:30:19 pm
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MechaMegloManiac
Registered User
Posts: 89
(6/28/01 4:22:51 pm)
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Re: smuggla quit while you're aahh..behind...
Well,you better tell the people who e-mail me that I bombed them,they may not have realised,have you ever been to a dodge intrepid forum Bob? think you have,tried to cause me problems,I sent the guy some engine pics,he was very impressed with my handiwork,it was my 16V head...but,still thought it was decent.You are like a bad dream bob...a pathetic version of Freddy Kruger,older and dumber,I'm not reading your edited post,now go and spend time with your family,stop wasting time on a loser like me.You make me feel far more important than Iam.
Smuggla.
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m1k3yz
Registered User
Posts: 24
(6/28/01 7:34:11 pm)
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Re: smuggla quit while you're aahh..behind...
its harder to accelerate an item with a larger diameter due to its larger mass and larger surface area, where on tarmac and ashphalt, etc. eg roads you already have friction also in place and it takes more intertia and angular velocity and accelration to get the object spinning. the centrifugal forces act perpendicular to the centripital forces acting on the object. intertia is also applied to the object because its a moving force. no such thing as centrifugal torsion, its means nothing in the science world
cheers
michael
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alonzo69
Registered User
Posts: 108
(6/28/01 9:33:09 pm)
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funny shit
keep goin smuggla your entertaining me
:smokin
alastair@guyofyourdreams.com
icq : 101761410
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