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Expo86
Registered Poser
Posts: 872
(8/7/03 4:32 pm)
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Re: .
Quote: I wasn't sure if I was clarifying things or stirring up shit.
Hey Nick, you were also airing some opinions I think more than a few of us shared. Which, I guess, may stir up some shit
Thanks,
Dave.
1986 Black on Black GT-S hatch
Speed costs money... how fast do you want to go? |
Pentavalver
Registered User
Posts: 553
(8/7/03 4:56 pm)
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1ce again I'll ask,as its been completely overlooked/ignored.
HAS ANY1 SEEN THE CAMS YOU SPEAK OF DIALLED WITH A CAM DEGREE WHEEL?? You probably havent.
Therefore,who are you to quote specs?
Who told you what these specs you quote are?
What makes you think its totally correct?
The 7MGE,same gen as the smallport,runs 256deg cams,that engine is identicle in configuration to the 4A,so,howdo you explain some quotes of 232 deg's?
Thats some 24 deg's between what I have here in a redtop smallport,(dialled)to what you guys QUOTE it is...
2 deg's is a lot in camshaft speak,so whats 24 deg's?
This is more rumour internet bullshit..some1 wrote it...some1 read it...and a lot swallowed it.
Theres absolutely NO EVIDENCE pertaining your statement on ATLANTIC ENGINES,11000?? so,your stating that these engines though running on set ECU's,have been reved to 11000 to produce 260HP?
What something IS and COULD be capable of is 2 very different things.
Not only that,but a cam designed to peak power at 9500 is going to be useless at 10000+,and if it requires TRD's max cam of 322deg' to produce 220HP at 9500,what cam are they using for 11000 RPM 260HP runs?? Wheres the dyno video,and legitimate dyno sheet?
If I made 260 @ 11000 I'd have it stamped on my forehead.
That claim is the end result of some1's fantasy comming to life on the internet...its known in legal jargon as "hearsay",or mixed up unfounded shit that has no credible basis.
I've personally seen and worked on ALL...every single 4AG devised,currently in my garage,is an early ZE,smallport MAP redtop,silvertop 20V,currently being ported for my 20V turbo engine currently in the works,outside sits my holey blacktop block with ventilation,and under my bonnet resides a blacktop with beam polished shotpeened silvertop rods,peened balanced crank with custom bigend clearance and TRD bearings.Blacktop pistons with custom piston to head clearance,TRD gasket, heavily ported head,with 54mm ported throttles,running around 12.8:1 C/R,retrofitted with a 6 speed.
I was ridiculed on clubge when I stated my piston to head clearance,was told i's not possible to have it at such,but that same person is now on another forum,ASKING what piston to head clearance to use...
All of this runs on either my original 100K/W ECU or the microtech programmable through a simple piggy back loom that uses all factory sensors.
I know what can be swapped...pushed and run in all GE apps,whats worth doing and whats a waste of time.
Lets not forget it was me who educated the jealous no nuthin haters on clubge with the direction of cam during actuation of VVT,also,that the BLACKTOP rods are not suited to high load apps..something that I think I read in the TECH ARTICLES.
A certain some1 ridiculed me that I made a mistake building the engine,now theres a pic of my block on his site with completely INCORRECT diagnosis of the failure,I have engineer reports to the correct diagnosis,but,it doesnt sound as exciting and it was nothing to do with my handiwork.
Some other bullshit on the net...
ZE pistons are forged and CERAMIC coated.
WRONG!!!
They are pressure cast and teflon coated.
Teflon was used to prevent carbon buildup on the crowns,they also used it on the Hicomp pistons.
Geuss what?? it didnt work..carbon still built up on crowns,so they added squirters to help negate the prob.
Interestingly,the silver nor blacktop use any coatings at all.
The 6 speed is very weak and only has an extra gear added on.. WRONG
Its totally revised from casing inwards and IS capable of running on 5 speed linkages.
Theres an engineer on the forum? and?
No offence,but I could go out right now and find 5 great engineers who have never heard of the 4AGE,and pop there eyes out there head when they see 5 valves.
I ask more Q's than answer? LoL thats well wrong,and i apologise for asking anything.
This thread was dead b4 I interjected,I dont think I have defaced it.
Cowboy,back to u,I would have both ur cams dialled so you know what they are,I know my OEM are 256,so u mite want to find out for sure,and if you do,please post the info.
You can see some pics of my work here:
www.pbase.com/pentavalver
CLICK THE LINK!.
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GTSSportCoupe
Registered User
Posts: 549
(8/7/03 5:30 pm)
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Re: .
Here are some specs from Toyota on the Formula Atlantic cars:
www.toyota.com/motorsport...specs.html
240hp+ at 9500rpm
Here is a PDF of the 2003 Formula Atlantic Rule book:
www.toyota-atlantic.com/2003Rulebook.pdf
Chapter 10 has engine and car specs. Also check out Appendix AA for more engine info.
Your right, nothing proves that the engine can rev to 11k. I think the 11k number that people throw around probably comes from the "Iida Akira's $100k dream AE86" article in the Technical Reference section of Club4ag. I have seen other reference to this number before too, but cannot remember where.
Blah...I'm getting way off topic here.
Nick
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GTSSportCoupe
Registered User
Posts: 550
(8/7/03 5:42 pm)
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Re: .
Vdubcowboy:
Have a read through these pages if you have not already. They are pretty good articles with lots of useful information.
www.users.bigpond.com/vid...engine.htm
www.geocities.com/MotorCi...2/4age.htm
Nick
Edited by: GTSSportCoupe at: 8/7/03 5:51 pm
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Expo86
Registered Poser
Posts: 873
(8/7/03 5:49 pm)
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Re: .
I have my large port, blue top cams out now and will be sure to run a dial indicator over them to determine lift and duration once I can get my tools together.
I am VERY doubtful that my original cams are 248 as the difference between those and the HKS 256-advertised ones set at 105 intake/110 exhaust is very large indeed.
But, I will measure and post; I will not be able to add any info regarding the small port cams however. Regardless of any of the technical stuff there is no reason to take such an aggressive/abusive/derogatory stance. Since you are obviously quite knowledgeable about these matters, perhaps it is your attitude that invites the ridicule you mentioned.
Peace,
Dave.
1986 Black on Black GT-S hatch
Speed costs money... how fast do you want to go? |
V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 138
(8/7/03 10:44 pm)
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Re: .
Thanks Nick that was very much appreciated. I'm going to read them now. Also, Expo86 when you have sometime you should bring your car out to thermal plant road. Invite is open to anyone living in the lowermainland.
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Expo86
Registered Poser
Posts: 874
(8/8/03 9:37 am)
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Re: .
Sounds good. But it would sound better if I had a car. It's under the knife for body work and will be for a while. I hate rust and walking sucks.
I'm looking forward to getting it back and dialing in my cams. Just in time to take it off the road for winter! JEEZ!!!
I was unable to find my dial gauges last night when I went to see my daughter so I'll sit down and shut up.
Dave.
1986 Black on Black GT-S hatch
Speed costs money... how fast do you want to go? |
Pentavalver
Registered User
Posts: 554
(8/8/03 3:51 pm)
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Dave,you dont dial cams when there out of the engine,you dial them when there fitted,with belt to crank,using a dial wheel,see here:
www.geocities.com/MotorCi.../comp.html
Its generally done with custom style grinds,not really needed with Jap style billets,TRD,HKS,as there allready sorted,they just need to be bolted in with the timing marks aligned.
You say you have a set of HKS 256? and they are bigger than ur standard items?
You really want to bolt them in! nice midrange and good top end.
The ridicule I mentioned came from egotystical insecure fools who were not capable of seeing the wood for the tree's.
I wasnt derogatory to any person,just the misinformation.
Anyways,theres some food for thought in this thread now.
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Expo86
Registered Poser
Posts: 875
(8/8/03 5:46 pm)
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Re: .
Pentavalver,
Dialing in a cam to set the centreline needs be done while it was in the car, of course, and would also determine duration and lift but those can be checked with the cams out of the car as well.
I was going to use the dial indicator gauge with the cam turning on vee blocks to measure total lift and note lift as I rotated it so that I could determine duration at .5mm (what HKS seems to use as they're advertised duration from their documentation).
The head was milled so I did, in fact, need to set the centrelines with a degree wheel to ensure accurate timing. This was easy since I have Toda adjustable cam gears.
Yes, I have the newstyle HKS 256 cams RT093 and 094 where the lift is only 8mm and only the exhaust cam has the distributor gear. They are already in the car as part of a complete head and valve job and are definitely larger. Set at 105 intake/110 exhaust the overlap is large enough for me to have unacceptable HCs to pass emissions testing here in Vancouver. Low end (pulling into traffic at an intersection) power is down noticeably and I will be playing with my cam gears when I get the car back from the body shop to get things adjusted to suit me.
It's a little tough for me to do a straight before after comparison because my valve guides were very loose before so at high revs the valves weren't sealing well and high end power was off as revs went up. While I didn't know it, that was the reason for my aversion to high revs - it sounded like the engine was going to come apart!
Dave.
1986 Black on Black GT-S hatch
Speed costs money... how fast do you want to go? |
V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 139
(8/8/03 11:27 pm)
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Re: .
Dave,
What do you have done to the engine and how much power would you say your pushing at the crank??? Also, is your engine the standard blue-top???
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V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 146
(8/10/03 2:43 am)
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Re: .
I went down to Keep Labs to drop off some stuff for my car and I got a chance to see the intake manifold after relocating the intake to the other side of the manifold. Very nice welding and the whole piece looks stock. I should have pics of it online soon I just have to find my Camera. I'm also going to be painting my valve covers and pullies while the engine is out. I think I'm going a little too wild with the colour though but hey it's under the hood and I'm allowed to have a little fun right? It does look a little 2F2F but oh well.
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Expo86
Registered Poser
Posts: 877
(8/10/03 11:29 pm)
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Re: .
I'm glad your engine work is going well.
Mine is a standard large port with 130k kms on it. Bottom end is untouched. The head was completely redone: .020" shaving per Nick's suggestion and a port, polish and deshrouding in the combustion chambers. Compression ratio is now about 9.6:1 with the stock pistons after the milling and grinding around the valves to improve flow.
The valve seats were fly cut with a 3 angle job, the valves themselves got two cuts and I hand lapped them. The valve guides were replaced since they were very loose. The cams were changed to the HKS 256s I mentioned above and they're turned thru some Toda adjustable cam gears.
I've opened up the stock air box but have retained the factory filter (I don't trust foam), have a TRD 4-1 header and a 2.25" mandrel bent exhaust system with hiflow cat and SS muffler. TRD wires dress it up on top.
I'm hoping for about 140HP at the crank while maintaining drivability when I get it all set up; the broadness of the curve is more important to me than a peaky number I might be able to brag about. I did some RPM bracket runs so I can compare my results and I'll use those to get an approximate setting on the cams. When I figure I'm close I'll check/tune it on a dyno and then I won't have to guess about the HP anymore.
1986 Black on Black GT-S hatch
Speed costs money... how fast do you want to go? |
V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 149
(8/11/03 12:50 am)
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Re: .
HKS stuff is so expensive. How much were your Cam gears. I'd like to get a set but I can't see the value. I'm sorry but $400 seems like a lot to pay for a couple hp unless I'm missing the point of cam gears???
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Expo86
Registered Poser
Posts: 881
(8/11/03 1:10 am)
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Re: .
I got a deal on the cams from ebay. The gears came from Rick at INTEC who posted on the board a while ago. I didn't pay $400 for them. They give you flexibility and the chance to tinker around. They also help get the cam timing right when you shave the head.
You asked what I had and I told you. If you don't see the value in getting them then don't.
To each his own,
Dave.
1986 Black on Black GT-S hatch
Speed costs money... how fast do you want to go? |
V Dubcowboy 
Registered User
Posts: 150
(8/11/03 11:58 am)
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Re: .
Dave, I wasn't trying to say they were a waste of money I really want to get some because I know you can adjust them for more bottom end or more top end power. I just think that from what I've been quoted which is $400 that I'll wait. You mentioned Intec though. How do I get a hold of them???
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Expo86
Registered Poser
Posts: 882
(8/11/03 12:17 pm)
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Re: .
Their site is: www.intecracing.com
I agree that $400 is a bit steep. You can also make up you're own set if you're so inclined.
1986 Black on Black GT-S hatch
Speed costs money... how fast do you want to go? |
Pentavalver
Registered User
Posts: 560
(8/11/03 4:17 pm)
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You should be able to have ur OEM's modified at any machine shop for less than $100 CAN.
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